• intentional practices
• working in alignment
• different perspectives for hiring is better
• keeping systems simple
• cultural leadership

About Shane & Beren

Transcript

Nicole Smith
Welcome to Take Control with Nicole, as business owners we experience firsthand the fine line between our personal and business lives. During our conversations, we will look at simple hints and tips to create time, reduce overwhelm, and help you to navigate through your journey to where you want to be. If you’re looking for smarter ways to work, and create space and time freedom in your day, then you’re in the right place. All right, let’s go.

Nicole Smith
Hello, I’m Nicole Smith, COO, Operations Specialist and Systems Designer from The Artisans Business Solutions and welcome to Take Control with Nicole. Today I’m speaking with the fabulous Shane and Beren all about leaving internal partnerships, spending the last decade developing remarkable leaders, teams and cultures. Shane was the first human that danced into my mind when I looked at today’s conversation. What sparked my curiosity was the fabulous internal partnership that I had glimpsed between Shane and Beren, which embodies the unique skills of each human aligning together to create the team that they really wanted to create. So let’s introduce our fabulous guest.

Nicole Smith
Shane is an expert in letter communication, blending his experience in business and psychology to help leaders communicate, connect and collaborate more effectively in order to bring out the best in those they lead. Speaker, coach, trainer and author Shane has partnered with some of Australia’s most well known and loved businesses across the public, private and non-for-profit sectors. Beren’s, a doer and an explorer, supporting others in their journey. He’s taken the learnings collected by walking alongside small businesses, allowing them to concentrate on what they do best, while he supports them by either doing or organizing systems and teams around them to take care of the rest, allowing them to flourish. Beren is also a Design A Decade mentor, a program created that supports humans who are right in the chaos of preteen and teenage children, preparing them for these stages in life. Well, hello, I’m so excited to have you both here today. As we were talking before we pressed go on the recording. This is one of the first triple human episodes that we’ve had. So welcome.

Shane Hatton
We’re here. We’re doing it. Lets go. Im excited.

Nicole Smith
Fabulous. Well, I’d love to start with a little bit about your journey. And today, obviously, we’re talking about the journey of you both together and forming that sort of internal partnership that you have to support each other to be the most fabulous humans. So how did this all start?

Shane Hatton
Oh, gosh, we, if we if we take it back, it’s kind of like, you know, they say that if you if you kind of search and follow enough rainbows, eventually you find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I felt like my life has been spent chasing rainbows trying to find that pot of gold. And somehow, I managed to find a business manager who sits at the base of that rainbow who is my pot of gold. And I can confirm that they do exist great, great business managers do really exist. And that that kind of is a bit of my journey in discovery. I don’t know if the metaphor really fits. But if we kind of rewind the clock a little bit, I’ve been running my practice for about about five years, maybe a bit over five years now. And eventually reached a point in my practice as I started to build it and grow it, where I realized that I needed some help, because I have a problem that I can do a lot of things, but I shouldn’t do a lot of things. And I was in that place where I was like I really need some additional support. And a lot of the people around me were typically outsourcing a lot of their work overseas, they were looking at virtual assistants. And for me, I needed someone not just to implement work for my practice, I needed someone who could help me partner in my practice. And so I put a call out a bit of a Bat Signal to a few friends and said Is there anyone that you know, that would be excellent at this and good friend of mine, Chris Freeman happened to reach out to me and say, Hey, I’ve got a business manager who is excellent. And would you be interested? And of course I jumped at it. That’s That’s my side of the story anyway, could have looked completely different from Beren’s perspective.

Nicole Smith
Let’s hear your side. Was it the same experience?

Beren Harris
I think the specifics around it are very similar on the fact that yeah, it was we’ve just clicked over not long ago, two years that we’ve actually been working together. It was sort of March 2021 I think we actually got going together. But we’ve been involved in the same sort of environment for a while. And when it came to this type of relationship, and Shane sort of had reached out to Chris, I was working with and still continue to work with Chris in his practice and his business called Design A Decade. And we we had already interacted Shane and I had already interacted and it came down to just a simple question which is, like, Is this someone that I’d like to work with? Right. And for me, it really comes down to knowing who the person is, what they’re about, and what what they’re trying to achieve. Because there’s a lot of people out there they’re trying to do. I’ve seen a lot of people that are out there just doing things. And they’re not even like the cogs that are connected to a machine that’s producing something amazing. They’re just like, somehow attached to the axle and it’s just spinning. It’s not doing anything. And that’s not what I wanted to do. And so when the call came through Chris and said, Do you remember Shane? I said, Yeah, I do. And he’s like, Okay, awesome. He’s looking for a business manager, do you want to take a couple of your days or go over and have a chat with him and see if he’s got some stuff. And we had the conversation, and I think there was a bit of backwards and forwards about what it looked like and making sure that we aligned and then it was just like, Okay, well, let’s just give this a go. And, and see what it turns out to be. And somehow that that conversation turned into three months, six months a year. And like I said, we’ve just clicked over two years, and it’s just been a bit of a whirlwind. But at the same time, it’s been a phenomenal relationship that I now get to not just have someone else that I’m supporting. But I’ve now got a really good best friend that that knows me. And I know him and we get to work together at the same time, which is just a benefit. I think

Nicole Smith
Yeah, it’s fabulous.

Shane Hatton
I’ve got Beren looking into retirement homes for me at the moment. It’s a long term project. I know. He said, it’s three months, six months, two years, but I have strong plans for Beren and I to kind of pick out a retirement village that we could work from so yeah, looking forward to that.

Nicole Smith
I love it. As long as it’s got like that sort of tropical poolside, you know, activities on the daily. That sounds fabulous.

Beren Harris
It’s not here in Australia, it’ll be somewhere on an island somewhere, like…

Nicole Smith
Oh, that sounds so cool. So, some of the words that jumped out at me was alignment, and partnership. Obviously, it’s what we’re talking about today. But it really is when you’re working so closely with someone in your inner business. So, the parts that not everybody sees, it’s a real trust game, isn’t it as well. And knowing that I’m growing my team at the moment over this side, I’ve got three fabulous sort of casual humans. And then I’ve got an OBM team as well. And a lot of it is a leader which Shane, I’ll let you talk about leadership because that’s your your bag, you’ll think culture and all that. But I’ve known when I lean into those relationships, and we’ve got that alignment from a human-point first, are we good humans tick? Okay, the rest of it can naturally flow on. We do a lot of calibrating over this side as well, with different containers that we we have in the business. So, talk to me a little bit about the culture that you guys are creating, because that’s your thing Shane. Is that was that a real sort of focus point when you started to build this relationship?

Shane Hatton
Yeah, I mean, it’s an interesting conversation, you talk about alignment, I think one of the things that’s worthwhile distinguishing is that alignment doesn’t necessarily mean agreement. And, and most often, it doesn’t. And I think one of the things that makes the partnership between Beren and I so valuable, is that we are two very, very different people. And one of the things that I was looking for when I was I was looking for support in my practice, and I use this language intentionally. I’m not, I wasn’t looking for someone to be an employee. In my practice, I wasn’t looking for someone to come in and, and do work that I could delegate work to, I was looking for someone to partner with me in my practice, and help me build my practice. And I wanted someone who was in on that. But when I was looking, the thing that I was looking for someone who could do things different to me, and I would suggest that even people who are listening who are looking at recruiting, we look for people that we feel comfortable with. And most often we feel comfortable with people who feel familiar. And that familiarity is a lot of the sameness. And one of the challenges that that’s going to bring to a business or to a practice that you’re building is that you end up recruiting people that are just like you and you end up with a whole lot more of your own dysfunction. And one of the things that is challenging about running a practice is you’ve got to find someone who’s not like you. And as a result of that it creates a little bit more tension in that relationship. But if you have a great person, and I definitely think I’ve got that in Beren where they’re kind of like ego goes to the side for a moment you go, you know what I’m here to learn. But I’m also here to contribute. And we can kind of have that disagreement, but alignment and alignment for us is just the way that we’ve decided to do business together. And so we’ve made some pretty intentional decisions in our practice about how we run things. And it’s alignment, but by all means, I don’t know about your thoughts varying but I would suggest we we are very different people in our brains operate and how we tend to do work, right.

Beren Harris
Yeah, 100% I remember as you’re talking this through I remember having this conversation with Christine, my wife in some of our early days where you had asked me to do something and it was around some media stuff it was around creating and, and not fully understanding your background when we first got going as in where you’d originally started. knowing that that’s actually your wheelhouse. And we like your trade that you’d been coming through. And so I remember sitting with my wife just going, I don’t even know why I’m working with this guy. He’s so smart. Like he can do all of this stuff. And I just feel useless compared to him when it comes to that. But on the on the flip side, it was about, as he just talked about, it’s about that growth of being able to come in and go, Well, I’m here to support him. And because he can do all the stuff, I think you said earlier, Shane, just because you can do the stuff doesn’t mean that you should do the stuff. And it’s been one of the things that I’ve seen so often, which is, too many people are either doing the wrong thing in their particular role or job or business, when it should be done by someone else. And even if they’re the expert in it, they’ve been elevated to a point, just because you’re the expert. And it doesn’t mean that that’s your role anymore. And it’s about helping someone. And so I’ve grown immensely in the last two years in particular areas because of the training, and the conversations. And the way Shane does things which comes down to the culture, it’s like, this is how I’d like it done. This is how I see it. And I’ve always had this stance of, because it’s not my practice, it’s not my name above the door, it’s not my face that they’re going to see. And it’s definitely not my bank account, so to speak, that at the end of the day is going to make the difference, right? There’s a side of it going, well, I’ve got an opinion. And and I’ve got my own VA’s, we talked about that earlier. So I’ve got my own VA’s, and a lot of them over overseas are, Yes, sir. I’ll do this. And they sort of are literal. Whereas I am definitely not that person, I will come in and Shane will come probably agree to this. I will argue my point to the point that you go, okay, I get it. But this is the way I want it done. And and I’m quite onboard 100%. Let’s do it your way. Because it’s not, it’s not my, I guess business at the end of the day. It’s Shane’s. And for other people I’ve worked with over the last 10 or so years, I’ll argue my point to the point where I go, you now understand why I’m saying that we should do it this way. And then at the end of the day, if you want to go another way. 100% I mean, let’s do it.

Nicole Smith
Yeah, that’s an important thing to discuss, actually, because that’s when you’re looking and you’re first looking or at whatever stage looking for support in your business. Sometimes the easy route is I’ll get a VA, because you think that a VA will solve all your problems. But that’s the experience that we’ve had as well is if you’re very good at creating lists, and giving deadlines and exact of what needs to be happening, a VA may be perfect for you. But being able to have those collaborative discussions on, Okay, well, this is where we’re heading. This is my idea of what we how we can do it, this is your idea of how we can do it. Ultimately, the leader of the business will set the direction, right, set that tone and where we’re going to move forward to. But having those conversations sometimes open up ways that as a leader we may not have thought about before, because that’s not our space all the time. That’s wonderful that you can create those containers for those conversations and easily as well.

Shane Hatton
Yeah. Amazon have this phrase in their leadership culture, which I really love, which was have a backbone, disagree, then commit. And it’s just this mantra that they have. And I think that kind of sums up exactly what Beren was just talking about, which is in the meetings, like have a backbone, like say what needs to be said and argue for your point, like, you’re fighting for your life, I love those singing shows where it’s like you’re gonna sing for your life, it’s like, it’s your chance to say everything that needs to be said. What I love at the end is like, once the decision is made, it’s that it’s that sense of like, I can let go of that knowing that you know what, it wasn’t the decision that we made and okay, and and you know what, at the end of the day, there’s gonna be times right as a business owner make the decision what I think is best and turns out to be the wrong decision. And what I love and I get from Beren, there’s never a sense of I told you so. Which is like I argue my point you you kind of overruled me, you went a different direction. It didn’t work out. And rather than saying, Hey, sucked in, you should have listened to me. It was like, okay, so what didn’t work? How can we adjust it? How can we work with for better for next time? And I think that’s such a crucial component of how people work together.

Nicole Smith
Yeah, exactly. We do really support each other in all the things right. So, when you are moving through those moments, Darn it that wasn’t exactly the best decision, having someone support you and go, Hey, do you know what we did the best, was fabulous. Next time, we can look at it differently. It’s a great conversation elevates us to move to the next. Now I can’t but not talk about my passion of clever systems design and I know that Beren this will be something that you will be like hell yeah. Let’s talk about it. Live a love a process. Is that something that since you have started working together, Shane, I know you’re all about the tech and I’ve been watching some of your AI videos of like that. Like sending the links to my team going, Guys, like, check this out, check this out. Podcast stuff, let’s look at that. But processing systems, is that something that you’ve been leaning into the past couple of years of working together to get that streamlined efficiencies in the back back into business?

Shane Hatton
Yeah, I’ll let Beren answer this one. My setup to this is one of the reasons why I thought Beren would be a good fit for my practice, is because he’s a systems thinker. And for me, I am, I’m very much an ideation bright and shiny person. Like if it’s shiny, if it’s new, if it’s technologically, if it’s automated, like it lights me up. And I remember one good example of this is like, I think Beren mentioned before, like Shane will have this idea. And I’ll go out and do something and bear and we’ll go in action. And then I’m like, I’m not even sure if that’s a good idea. We, when we first started working together had this idea that I was recording all these voice memos on my phone. And I was like, I’ve got this idea. Let’s do this thing. It’s called I’m out and about, and I’m thinking about, and it was like, we’re going to take the voice memo and create this like transcription of it and post it to my LinkedIn. And I was like, I was like, throwing this idea out to Beren. And then the next day Beren’s come back and like we’re meeting and he’s like, okay, so we could do this. And he’s like, I’ve been thinking about how we can map this, I’ve got this. And I was like, oh, gosh, like I slept on it last night, I realized that’s an awful idea. The Beren’s already like systemized this thing and put it into action. And so we’ve, I’ve had to like develop little codes along the way. I’m like, I’ll write in my whatsapp to bear in like, hey, just FYI, this is a brain dump, not an idea or not an action, because I’m like, I may wake up tomorrow and hate this. But in terms of systems thinking, Beren is like, he’s sharp with this stuff. And so I’ll let you jump in and talk about what you’ve done for us.

Beren Harris
That’s awesome. I love the fact that it’s just I mean, this was when I first I don’t know if you remember, I actually remember it was our first get together. So we obviously met in previous environments. But when we started, I flew down to Melbourne, and we had a whole day at one of the co-working spaces, and we had the whiteboard. And we just started listing everything that Shane was currently using, so I could get an understanding of what we’re working with. And when I break it down, for me, it’s like, depending on the type of business, depending on the type of work that we’re doing, you could probably get it into a good couple of systems. And they might not be perfect. But for a really nice clean system, especially if you’re going to allow it to be taken over by someone else, I want to get it to a point where it’s as concise as it can be. And we sort of filled half the whiteboard with all the different apps that Shane was using, and on his phone and on his computer and all of this type of stuff. It was great. And, and we really wanted to consolidate some and one of those was a great CRM. And I remember this just being the standout of going okay, well, here’s some options, and here’s why I think they should be good. I jumped on the aeroplane, later on, I flew home. And by the time I got home, he’d already signed up for that piece, the CRM and created me a user account. And he’s like, halfway through the setup. And, and it was amazing, so bright and shiny, go for it. But I think one of the things that comes out of your question about great system design is the process of ‘simpler is sometimes still better’. And just because there’s a new fancy thing that’s out there doesn’t mean that it’s going to be better than maybe what you’ve got. And I remember listening to a guy, his name’s Craig Rispin. He’s a futurist who I remember going to an event and there was a lot of people came because he was going to be answering the question, what’s the best CRM that’s out there? And he gave a history of like, how many CRMs existed 20 years ago, and 15 and 10, and five, and two, and all this sort of stuff. And at the end, he said, Look, the best CRM that you can use is the one that you actually use. And so when it comes to great systems design for us, there’s so many great ideas that Shane comes with. And he’s got this new process that he’s built right at the moment, using a few different systems to be able to record audio goes through Dropbox, AI transcribes, it does summary notes, does some action points, and all sorts of stuff. And I sometimes feel like, I’m just catching up, like we spoke earlier, where I go, I’m, I love all the tech, and I love all the new stuff. But I’m slightly slower to adapt some of it because I want to make sure that I can see this style of system that it’s going to work for, rather than just being something cool. And now I don’t know what I’m going to do with it. And so it’s been an ongoing thing. I guess, Shane, correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s been an ongoing between what’s new and fancy and shiny? And what’s practical for what we actually need?

Shane Hatton
Yes, yes. 1000 times? Yes. It’s the best systems are the ones you actually use. And that’s why like, this is such a valuable partnership as you have to have people to get around you and go, Hey, that’s a really cool piece of technology. Oh, that’s a really amazing tool that can support your business. But are you actually going to use that and is it going to work for what we’re doing?

Nicole Smith
Is it fit for purpose? So that’s the easy, is it fit for purpose, five words. They always say that and when we talk about clever systems design over here, tech is only one component to where actually looking at the process first, I was talking to someone at I did a speed networking thing the first time on Tuesday night, that’s a whole thing. 38 people in like two hours, it was like a whirlwind. It was fun. But by the end of it, it was amazing how your messaging got very sharp. But one thing that really stood out was a lot of people think that tech is the problem. We’re actually it’s the process that you’re working through. That’s where you you make those tweaks. The tech is fun. There’s some really fabulous things with automations. And making, especially with a smaller headcount business, the more efficiencies you can introduce, is just absolutely fabulous, even when you get to bigger scale as well. Consistency. Fabulous from a systems point of view, from a process point of view, is there anything that you feel like you’ve worked together to really create and make shine since you’ve been working together?

Shane Hatton
I like what you just said there, which is it’s about understanding the whole system, rather than just the technology component of it. And I mean, Beren, you’ve got these kind of categories that you mapped out on the whiteboard, one of those first sessions that we did together, that’s now part of our weekly meeting, you’ve got these kinds of topics? Do you want to touch on those? Or I’ve been I’ve got them in front of me what the you’ve got like sales, marketing, procedures, systems, that kind of overarching framework, how do you use that?

Beren Harris
Yeah, so it’s like, it’s the five key areas of business, which is obviously a big part of where I’ve been taught through design a decade and my growth over the last sort of 20 years, so to speak. And it’s the five key areas of business, which is your procedures and systems, your sales and marketing, your planning and strategy, your finance, and admin, and then your team. And so it’s around, if you were in a big corporate, then each of these five departments would have their own meetings. And then the heads of those five areas would probably be in volved, in a C Suite meeting and stuff like that. And unfortunately, what I see far too often is small, smaller businesses, especially, as you said, small headcount and those type of things is that because we’re all together all the time, these five areas don’t get their own individual attention, they all sort of get wrapped up into one. So procedures and systems actually becomes part of planning of strategy, which becomes part of sales and marketing rather than going, what’s the sales and marketing journey that we want to go on? Okay, which has come out of a conversation because of the planning and strategy of what we want to do over the next five years, which then feeds into what procedures and systems do we need to support that. And to allow that to happen? What’s the team that we’re going to need to make that work. And from that team, obviously, there’s a finance and admin component of that, which is also finance and admin’s right at the top, because we’re trying to hit maybe x amount of dollars. So they all interlink in such a way, but they’re all individual in their same way. And this is one of the greatest teachings I’ve had from Chris Freeman, who Shane obviously mentioned earlier.

Nicole Smith
Yeah, it’s a really important, something that we’ve been doing. Think intentionally or unintentionally, that’s how I’ve been shaping my support humans around me. So, you know, mid last year, I engaged management accountant. And so we meet every month, we go through all the finances, which look at the cash flows, all the things there, my OBM team have a real lens on sales and marketing. So we’ve looked at all the strategy, the services, the offerings, how we’re doing it, the sales pages, all of that we’re just really writing at the moment. Now operations is obviously my bag. So, that’s where my lens comes in. But and we’ve got a team human as well, that helps with communication and really connecting in all people together. And the moment that you do realize and become aware that just because you are a smaller business in headcount or size, the importance on these silos doesn’t lessen. It’s actually been more important, because there’s so many more moving parts really quickly. I know if you’ve worked in corporate before, alongside corporate, how long does change take? With business, we can click a finger and buy a new piece of tech and tomorrow, we’ve got a new way of working. So I love that that’s part of your, you know, weekly check in that you just, you know, that sort of sense check of pulse check of what’s going on.

Shane Hatton
Yeah, it stops us from I guess, prioritizing one particular area at any given time and keeps us across the breadth of that. Someone asked me just yesterday, they said how do you how do you run your meetings with with Beren and what does that look like? And we’ve only this is only relatively new and I think it’s probably important for us to preface all of this. There’s still so much we’re still figuring out two years into our journey. Like I wouldn’t position ourselves as the pros and we’ve not nailed all of this. And so we’re constantly adjusting things as we go. And so with that meeting, if we think about, you know, they’re in talks about sales and marketing, we’re going Okay, so we’ve got to put the sales and marketing hat on. Like, let’s look at our pipeline. Let’s look at our lead list. Let’s look at the, you know, our email campaigns. Let’s look at all that stuff around sales and marketing. Let’s look at all the people that you need to be meeting with. So great, we’ve talked about that, let’s look at our planning and strategy. So we look at our delivery calendar, what’s coming up for me? Who am I working with? What are we missing? And then what are the tools and systems that we needed to support the delivery strategy in my business? Then let’s look at finance and go okay, great. So what’s our run rate? What’s our projections? How much have we made? How much are we planning to make? And then what kind of team do we need to support us to be able to do all of that, and when we’ve got those things consciously in front of us all the time, not everything has something to do with each of those areas every week, but it just keeps us I guess, focused and conscious of those particular areas. And then what it allows us to do then is to actually go, Okay, what’s the technology that we can use to support some of this? So when I started my practice, like we, Beren and I both connected with a business community called thought leaders, and in that we talked about the three kinds of activities of an expert or a person who’s commercializing their IP is to think sell and deliver, it’s to create your IP, it’s to sell that IP, and then it’s to deliver that IP. And so when I think about my role as a practice leader, those are my three jobs. And so once we knew what I was doing, we could then create the systems around that. So, we originally set it up as, Okay, Shane, as a thinker, what do you do you create content, you write blogs, you write newsletters, you write books, you write all this stuff. So, we need some kind of systems to capture that. So, we were like, Let’s just put it in Evernote, we’ll create some systems in there. And then you sell Okay, so what do we need for sale, okay, we’re going to use a CRM, we’re going to use Active Campaign to do all of our email campaigns, we can track some of our sales, and then we need to kind of create some way of tracking all of our finance around sales. So, that’s your, your cell. And then delivery, which is like the management of all those kind of programs, which is like your task management and putting all those things together. So, we had, like a task management system. So, when you figure out what you do, and then you go, what are the activities you need, then you can kind of find all those things that support that, unfortunately, what I fell into the trap of early my business was going, I need all of these tools, and then I’ll find a use for them, as opposed to figure out what I need to do and then build systems around that.

Nicole Smith
Yeah. And I think it’s so comes back to the intentional decision of fit for purpose. And I love that that’s what you’ve done, because we do SAP tech is really well, for tech people. It’s really exciting. And I know some of my clients arrive with research, spreadsheets of lines and lines and lines and lines of options. But when we actually come down to what is the intended purpose for that system, the want the one shines out, and do you enjoy using it as well. So, I’m sure Shane, you’ve signed up for things and you’ve got in there. And you’d be like, Oh, this is just Yeah, I don’t know. I can’t, what did you cancel it? Or is it still there?

Shane Hatton
Yeah, no, it’s still there. That That, for me is more like I’ve been using it for a while I hate it. And I’m like, I hate the user experience for that. And so I sign up for something new and Beren’s, like, Hey, I’ve just figured out how to use this thing. And I’m like, Oh, by the way, I’ve cancelled that we’re going to use something completely different.

Beren Harris
Or you can get two pieces of software that have almost the exact same name and do two totally different things. And one refers to the other and it’s just the tongue twisting going, wait, which piece of software is doing what?

Shane Hatton
Yes, that one is confusing for us at the moment.

Nicole Smith
You need a bit of like, user manual of software names and definitions and purposes.

Nicole Smith
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Nicole Smith
Oh, this is fun. I love this, I just all of these discussions are so important. For them the partnership even stronger though, because it’s open communication, you know what was happening where your focus is Shane, because as a business leader, you’re the one that is heading towards where you’re going. And if you’re not telling your team that they’re not going to know, and they’re not going to be able to support you. So, having those meetings is a fabulous thing. And using your tech to be able to, you know, talk about all the things as well, can we talk a little bit about leadership, because that’s something that I’m going through, I’m working with a fabulous Amy Summers from Craft Coaching and Development. She’s my leadership coach at the moment, and she’s fabulous. And I’m going through that journey from, as Beren is, I was a doer, a serial doer, as, the Nicole will fix it, Nicole will solve it, in all my realms. And when I started my business three years ago, my line was I will not be the doer, I’m not going to be the doer anymore. But of course, you fall into the doing, because you love it. So, I’m now stepping into a better team, got elite, I’m now stepping into management leadership roles. And it’s fabulous and a little bit like, ahh, at the same time. So, just I’ll hand it over to you to talk about whatever you want to talk about that. But I’m guessing that something you support your people through.

Shane Hatton
Yeah, I mean, I’m probably a serial doer as well, or I might, my problem is that I have a lot of information in my head. And it’s obvious reasons, I built the practice to the point when Beren came on board, and then we built it together from there. But basically everything that I perceive everything that I want to achieve everything that I want to do, and even things that I do on a day to day basis, are all in my head. And one of the problems I find for a lot of leaders who are stepping into kind of this partnership arrangement is that they want things to be done a particular way. But they don’t communicate it to the person that’s there to support them the way that they want to have it done. And it’s not because they don’t want that person to do a good job with it. It’s just that it’s so intrinsically part of what they do that it’s really hard to just go, Hey, could you go and do that, and then completely detach from it. So there’ll be a bunch of things, right, I’ll give you a good example. So like, you know, one of the things that Beren has done a lot more in the last probably, in more recent times has become more of that initial touch point for clients. So, when someone reaches out to me, they go to my website, they send me an email used to come to me, and then I would be on the phone or call them or do all this stuff. And, and the problem is that when I’m in delivery, I can’t always do that. But I want to be able to have that kind of touch point with Beren. Yeah, but Baron has a particular way of communicating to clients, which is his way of communicating, which is great. It’s just, it’s different to the way that I would communicate. And so I have to sit there and go, am I fully confident that I can just go hey, Beren, you be the first touch point for all of our clients now. And I won’t even bother myself with thinking about that anymore. Oh, my gosh, like that, for me fills me with anxiety, not because I don’t think Beren would do a good job is because it’s the initial very first touch point of a business. And I want it to be super reflective of me. And so there’s two parts to this. And there’s a part that I think I’m responsible for. And I think there’s a part that Beren’s responsible for. The part that I’m responsible for is I have to try and take what’s in my head and give it to Beren so that he has clarity, because I can’t expect him to respond in particular way for having given him the direction for it. But then the other part, which is I think is Beren’s responsibilities, he has to be willing to learn, which is that, he will go, Hey, this is how I think I should respond here. And for me to go actually, that’s not what I would say here, say it like this, this is how I would say it. Because what that does is it allows me to go, oh, great, let’s get that out of my head so that you’re clear now, but he also has to not take it personally as though I’m attacking his way of doing something. And I think Beren has been really good at going, Hey, this is what I’m thinking and it sounds really micromanage to go, Hey, just send me the email first. Because I just want to check how it’s worded. But you only need to do that a couple of times and adjust a few things. And then from there, it’s out of my head. I don’t have to touch it anymore. So that’s probably from my side. I mean, Beren, what about your side of that? Because you’re on the receiving end of a lot of the what seems are the seemingly very pedantic stuff for me.

Beren Harris
I think it comes back to something I said earlier, which is that idea that it’s not my name, at the end of the day, that’s going to be dragged through the hot coals if everything goes bad, right, because it says Beren Harris, business manager for Shane Hatton. It doesn’t say, Beren Harris, part owner and operator and chief in charge. And so. So from my point of view, the willingness to be teachable, has two parts as well. It’s in one essence, it’s learning how to take instruction and grow. And as I said, over the last two years, my growth in particular areas has been immeasurable. But there’s also a side of going, being teachable is not just instruction taking. It’s also information gathering, and information gathering helps you then decide on how you would do the next thing thing better with your own decisions. And so there are times where and it has been there’s been emails, and even just recently, we’ve been through something where I’ve done something based on all the information I’ve gathered, and then still I’ve even after I’ve done it, I’ve gone. I probably wouldn’t have done that. Or maybe Shane probably wouldn’t have wanted me do that. And I got an email from him just recently saying, Oh, maybe next time, we wouldn’t have responded to that. And I’m like, Yeah, you’re 100%. Right. And I apologies that that’s happened. And so coming from a point of view of of knowing that Shane is a doer, and I’m also a doer, but at the end of the day, I should be doing what he wants to do, and gives him the freedom to do what he actually should be doing. Yeah, that makes sense.

Nicole Smith
Yeah. And it’s lovely to hear that I’m not the only one that this journey is happening to. And you know, because that those similar conversations is what we’ve been shaping with my dad DOB employee. And it is a real investment of education and imparting the IP that sits in your head, only you can be you. But what you can help your people in your team is to support them to be similar to you in a way that still allows them to be them. Especially when it comes with our client communication. I know I had a similar experience recently, I just went into my sent items and saw something that was sent as me but it wasn’t me. And I was like, oh, Chloe, I just want to bring your awareness like this is how I would prefer things to be responded to going forward. And she actually was so appreciative of the the time and the space that we created that container to have those conversations, because it’s beautiful. When you you know, you work together for a duration of time, you start to know, the you know, the ways of working and the way your linguistic ways of talking as well. I say fabulous all the time. So my team now say fabulous, it’s, you can’t help but attract the words. Do you do that Beren? Is this something that Shane says all the time that you naturally say now probably don’t even realize?

Beren Harris
Probably.

Shane Hatton
Can you sensor things on this podcast?

Beren Harris
That is not true at all. He’s one of the most well spoken people that I have had the privilege of working with, that’s amazing. And, and so probably I don’t even realize it anymore. But in Shane’s first book Lead The Room and shameless plug there, it was probably one of the most earmarked and highlighted books that I have read in the last 10 to 20 years, so to speak. And there’s a lot of great books like his new one, Let’s Talk Culture, but Lead The Room for me was eye opening. And it was just amazing in the way that he communicates. And so I think as you’ve said, there, we we attract who we are familiar to, and we repel, who we don’t understand. And from that point of view, the ones that you’re around, you just naturally start writing or speaking as though they would, because you know, from my point of view, I know that how Shane wants it to be done. In other areas that I do I write as though it’s some someone else, I still always write it under my name, but I write in the terminology, and I write in the language and I write in the culture, that they would have the conversations, which is different to how Shane would have those conversations.

Nicole Smith
And it’s, I think that’s a really good point to bring. Because when you’re working or you’re connecting as a client with a business, there’s a certain ex- not expectation, but a certain experience that as business owners, we want to send out to the world. And so really having things in place like this, the communications internally, processes systems, all the tech stuff, gives that consistent experience across from the other side. And that’s what we want. And we love as as customers as well as clients, when you get that yourself. It feels just, They got it, like whoever I’m speaking to,

Shane Hatton
Feels consistent. Yeah, that just brings us a level of consistency. And I think that’s ultimately, you want your organization to feel like it’s one organization, not just little multiple kind of micro-organizations. And you want it to feel like each person you speak to feels personal. And but it doesn’t feel inconsistent. And you know, in culture, we talked about this idea that culture is not about eradicating differences. It’s around creating alignment, about around the things that we have in common. And the language I use is to be aligned at the core and inclusive at the edge. And what I mean by that is that as a team, we want to be aligned around the things that are most important to our business and be inclusive to all the edges that we bring that helped make us better. And so there’s some things where I say to Beren, we’re doing it this way, and it’s very directive and it’s because it’s really important to the integrity of how I want to be known as a business owner. And there’s other things where I go, You know what, it doesn’t really matter, we’re generally in the kind of ballpark. And there’s some things where I go, this doesn’t like, this is really important that you bring your own edge to this, because it’s not a strength for me. And without your strength without your edge we met, we’re missing something in the picture. And so, I would say, going back to that comment before, like familiarity, similarity makes us comfortable. But difference makes us better.

Nicole Smith
Yeah. We complement each other. And you know, the complimenting skills, just fireworks. Yes. In a good way. Of course.

Shane Hatton
Yes, not the kind of burn everything to the ground,

Nicole Smith
Up in the sky, not go down. That’s no fun. I’d love you to share a little bit about, you know, how you support and work, Shane, we and your your fabulous books and everything? Because I know we’re sort of wrapping up soon. So would you like to share a little bit about that?

Shane Hatton
Yeah, I mean, the work that I do predominantly is helping people navigate that transition from being the person who does everything, and is that technical expert, to then having, finding themselves in a position of leadership. And one of the things we know about leadership is that leadership is is complex, it’s really complex. But a lot of people make it complicated, and doesn’t need to be complicated. And sometimes all we need is some, some mental models and frameworks that help us to navigate that transition from being the person to leading a team of people. And so I help people navigate the spaces where leadership happens. So whether that’s, you know, I talked about the conference room, which is this collective leadership space. So whether you’re stepping into speaking, and you’re starting to become more of a keynote speaker, or you’re running big team meetings, or you starting to communicate more publicly to represent your business, whether it’s individually leading people, so whether that’s those coaching conversations, how to bring out the best of an individual, or a little bit of what we talked about today, that cultural leadership, which is about how do I how do I maintain the culture that I had, when I started as I continue to grow and scale my business?

Nicole Smith
Do you think it’s possible to shift a toxic culture that has been ingrained in a business for a long, long, long time? If yes, yeah, great.

Shane Hatton
So absolutely, what I would say is, you need to give it as much time to shift as that you have to create it often will take 20 minutes to 20 years to create a toxic culture, and then expect we’re going to shift it in the six months after. But if you give it the same level of commitment to change it as that you allowed it to be what it was, then I think you can absolutely shift culture.

Nicole Smith
Yeah. So, I think I’ve been around some, you know, some businesses in the past that have that underlying, you get on a phone call with one of the team members and instant stress and, Oh, and I’m just like, oh, it can be done a different way. It’s there’s just so much opportunity out there. So amazing. If you’re hearing that you’re in a business where it can be done. Beren, Design A Decade program. Can you tell me a bit about this?

Beren Harris
Yeah, sure. So Design A Decade, the company was founded by Chris Freeman. I’ve had the privilege of being a client for nearly two decades. And I’ve been fortunate enough to be on team so to speak for a bit over 10 years, I’ve been a Design Decade coach, and now managing partner for the last couple of years, which has been really amazing. And unfortunately, in today’s day, more than anything, there’s a lot of information. But it’s about turning information into knowledge and then into wisdom that a lot of people are really struggling with. And a big focus for me has been I’m now approaching the end of my 30s I’ve got four kids in the later teenage stage, I’m waiting for them to move out. And I’m got the carrying the weight of all their emotions and everything. But I’ve also got preteen kids still at home. And so the it’s this beautiful chaos, right? Like, I love my kids, they are so beautiful. But every day is chaotic, right, like talk about some of the conversations that Shane and I have had when I’m trying to explain, like trying to make it to the home office from the kitchen and the things that I’ve had to walk through and past and all sorts of stuff. And so the Design A Decade program is providing a an environment for people to come into, where it’s going to be filled with trusted personal and professional relationships to help you build lifestyle and financial wealth over time. And really, it comes down to this thing that unfortunately, we just don’t have the generational wisdom that we used to have. There’s a lot of information out there, but it’s the generational wisdom. And so whether you’re in business or whether you’re an individual or couple of those type of things, just trying to set up your future. We believe that designing one really solid good decade can set you and your family up for the rest of your life. Because unfortunately, 65 is the wrong number to play in life around these days now that we’re living 80s 90s, hundreds and retirements still at 65. So there’s a financial gap in what we used to have to what we have now. And it’s been a passion of mine being a young family, and raising young kids, to go well, it doesn’t make sense that during this time, we’re so laden with obligations and things to do that we forget about setting up for the future. And so having a trusted third party, not someone to tell you what to do, but someone to walk alongside you, hear your thoughts and daily challenges, and to bring opportunity, through guidance, and maybe caution of what’s going on, allowing you to set up and design the decade that you want to live not live a decade by default.

Nicole Smith
So important, I think for whatever stage you’re actually in, kids, no kids have a 12 month old brutal, who’s crazy running around the house, like whatever stage you are at your own, you know, we can get really busy, can’t we life can happen. And so being able to have that investment of energy and focus on the future, can actually help you now because it brings that structure and that simplicity in business life, whatever it might be. That’s amazing.

Beren Harris
Yeah, it’s a bit if I can, it’s about building order in your life. And we’ve just talked about great systems and all sorts stuff. It’s about building order, and changing culture, which both take time to set up and implement. And usually it’s because of Shane’s great working in his book is around like corporates primarily and those other things. But we’ve had a culture that we’ve grown up with from our parents, or the environment, or the socio economic area that we’ve grown up in and those type of things. So we’ve got a culture that we’re usually fighting against. And now that we’ve got social’s, as a different culture, our kids my kids are growing up with it I didn’t grow up with. And so having a system to build order, and therefore change the culture over time, so that in time, you’re living the life that you want to live, it has been a massive part. And yeah, individuals, couples straight out of high school, through to sort of empty nesters and, and really, there is a place for everyone. But that’s not really what this is about.

Nicole Smith
I think it’s all connected though, I think that message of the structure that those foundational elements of how you run your life, how you run your business, how you are as a human, that prioritization on looking after you, as well, because as a leader, as a, as a parent, as a friend or family member who had partner, making sure that we ah, have that space and energy for ourselves will only create the most fabulous things going forward. So very, very important in all the all the spheres.

Beren Harris
Can I say how important that’s been for working relationship, especially in this environment as well, Shane has probably been the most supportive in this type of relationship for any business organization. Large like I’ve worked for big corporates, like Telstra, I’ve worked for very small, like two-men operations, like kind of what we’re doing at the moment between Shane and I. And the difference in having a supportive relationship, not just from a work point of view, but from a environment point of view, like Shane’s already blocked it in his calendar that in two weeks time, I’m unavailable for a week, because I’m moving states. And so he’s like, just let me know the dates and I won’t, I won’t bother you right through that time. And so the support side for my life, which is separate to my work, is second to none. And I think that forms such a great part of the culture in knowing that if I’m not available during that particular time, I know at the end of the day, it’s that’s not a fireable offense, or he’s going to be annoyed, it’s spoken about with confidence that I’m that I’ll put in extra before or after, if that’s what’s needed. But during that time, he’ll support my life, making it more enjoyable for me to want to come back to work.

Nicole Smith
That’s a testament

Shane Hatton
We have a really nice mutual relationship. And the the phrase that is often used, the one that we’re taught is that my job is to make Beren’s life better. And Beren’s job is to make my life easier. And there’s that really nice mutual relationship between those two things. If I can create an environment where he feels like my life’s better for working for you. And if he can create an environment, I feel like my life is easier for having you on board, then I think it’s a really nice way to kind of build the relationship.

Nicole Smith
Love that. That’s going to be a snippet. Imagine if everybody created a business with that as the underlying I know, that’s how we’re shaping my business over here. It’s really human first and async working and supporting our people to be the most fabulous humans, while still delivering the most fabulous work. And that’s comes down to exactly what you just said there. You know, it’s just that was beautifully. Thank you for sharing that it was a lovely wrap up to our episode. We have the three questions, though. So are you ready to have a little look at those? Yes. Cool. Okay, what is your go to app that creates easing your day, I know this might be a challenge, you want to pick one, but you can pick as many as you want.

Beren Harris
Alright, so, so for mine, it’s, it’s an now outdated app, because I wish that it did more than did but it’s called Memomaila. And essentially, it’s just a voice recording app that you just quickly pull up. It’s like your voice memos. But as you record the voice memo, and then you let it go, it just sends the audio bytes straight to your email. And so for me, out and about, it doesn’t do the transcribing. Or it doesn’t do anything fancy with AI or those type of things. But it means in a quick moment, I can get my thought as well as my tone across rather than trying to take a note or those things that is literally probably my go to in making my life easier.

Nicole Smith
Yeah, did you have one that you love Shane, are you not sure you can.

Shane Hatton
I’m just checking my spreadsheet. I know I look I love Ecamm Live, it’s a, it’s a tool that allows me to kind of do a lot of my online delivery and a whole lot of easier way in my social content record. It’s a recording tool and a presentation tool.

Nicole Smith
I remember watching you do a presentation, must have been during the lockdowns and you had your iPad and you would you know do an on the is that was that through that tech?

Shane Hatton
That’s true. Ecamm Live? Yeah.

Nicole Smith
Or might have a look at that one. Fabulous. Okay, online, paper, hybrid. To-do list lovers?

Shane Hatton
I’m a an online for sure I use and this is where it gets confusing. We use notion as a tool. And we also use motion as a new AI to do lists. So that’s why it gets very confusing, but I’m very much I need a digital reminder to do it to get things done.

Nicole Smith
Yeah. So is that your to-do lists like so you have all your checklists and actions in Notion now.

Shane Hatton
In Notion, yeah. And then what I personally will do is then I take those tasks that are really important, and I put them into Motion, which is an AI scheduling tool, which pushes those straight into my calendar. So if it’s in my calendar, it gets done.

Nicole Smith
I love that. Yeah.

Beren Harris
Whereas I’m still definitely online. My wife is completely analog. And so that drives me bonkers because she’s written it on a pad in the kitchen. And I’ve got everything in Asana, which I know is, again, our data and those type of things. But it’s just so wonderful. And it’s got to be online. So love it.

Nicole Smith
Yeah, our rule in our house is if it’s not in the diary, it’s not happening. And so to help facilitate that, we’ve just got the new Samsung Family Hub digital fridge, so it has like an iPad and connecting in our decal, and there’s no excuse now everyone has to know what’s going on.

Beren Harris
Beautiful, new fridge coming up.

Nicole Smith
Excellent. Yeah, maybe that sounds good. Okay, so final question. What would you do if you created more space in your world,

Beren Harris
if I created more space, and I think from that point of view, we might be talking about more time is probably what comes to my mind. And imagine time is what comes to me at the moment. And for time, I think one of the things that I would do is spend more of it with my family. So my wife, my four boys, I know that that’s the one thing that over time, especially being young father coming through, I definitely didn’t give it the time that it needed. And so to create more space would be able to create better relationships through being able to spend more time and have closer connection. So that’s a really easy one for me to answer.

Nicole Smith
Yeah, I was listening to a recent podcast with Mark Boris, I think that’s how you say his surname. But that’s a learning that he shares is that he wish in going if he could go back in time that the energy would be with his family more. That’s a good, good lesson, to pick up wherever you are in your journey. What about you, Shane, do you have some.

Shane Hatton
My immediate responses? What would you do with more space is probably fill it with more things, so I have less space? I think that’s the intention. Why? And the question. I think for me in terms of when I think of space, like I think one of my goals in my practice is to do enough commercial work in terms of commercially viable, commercially smart, paid work, that allows me more space to do less commercial work. I love being able to be generous in the work that I do and work with organizations where I don’t they don’t maybe don’t have the money to pay. But I feel like there’s a value add that I can bring. And so I know that if I had if I can create space in my calendar by the commercial work, then I have more freedom to be able to do generous work and so that’s probably what I do.

Nicole Smith
Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much, both of you for joining me.

Beren Harris
Thank you for having us.

Nicole Smith
This conversation went as exactly as expected and it was fabulous. I loved it. Where can we find you? Both?

Beren Harris
Yeah. Real quick and easy. My LinkedIn or Instagram, which is Berenjharris, for the tag for each of those, it’s just nice and easy to find me and, and, and yeah, that’s it, nice and simple.

Shane Hatton
You can check out does on a Decade as well, which is, which is great place to check out resources then for me it’s just LinkedIn as well. I mean, Shanemhatton, basically M for Michael, anywhere you have social media, and then shanemhatton.com

Nicole Smith
Amazing. All those details are gonna go in the show notes. And we will put The Designer Decade in there as well, because I think that’s a really beneficial resource for especially growing families to be able to have that sort of connection point. So, wonderful. Thank you so much, again, for joining me today.

Beren Harris
Thank you for having us. It’s been awesome.

Nicole Smith
It’s been wonderful. Well, thank you, everyone out there that is listening today. have the most fabulous rest of your week creating clever systems for your business. Bye now. Well, there we go. Thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been such a pleasure having you on board. Have we connected on socials yet? If not, please come on over say, Hi. I’m on all the platforms at The Artisans Solution. So I’d really look forward to seeing you over there. And if you enjoy today’s episode, don’t forget to tag me and I’d love it if you could leave a review. And of course share this with others so others can come and join us next time. All right, then everyone have a fabulous rest of the week. And until next time see you then